$175.00. Since then there have been significant changes in the industry. Still searching for seals and bushings. Check oil weekly. KYJoe Bigger Hammer. holding off on buying and working with what I have. We also offer full restoration and repair services for your Ford Tractor. Home - Alberta Governor Service & Repair | Governor Shop Also pretty hard to get the core discount with them until I also ship cross border back to them. To check if the ring gear is out of round or has stripped teeth, insert a used bolt into this hole and screw in to where it touches the ring gear. The man - primary operator of it - operated it from 1956 to 1962, and then it was parked/junked in a field in western Oklahoma (trust me, he got his money's worth out of it!). IF governor tends to surge under load, lower the speed 100 RPM or so with regulation eye -screw C , then raise speed back up to t he desired no -load RPM with speed change lever B . Pickup; Willys Year: 1948; Dec 29, 2018 #9 Vintage Don said: Contact us with the information below, or by filling out the form Tractor & Industrial Parts Co 25660 Austin Rd Daphne, AL 36526 Email: sales@hoofgovernors.com Telephone: 251-626-0066 Toll-Free: 1-800-633-1834 Fax: 251-272-3610 After Hours Contact: 251-509-3586 Find Us On The Map Below Uniquely efficient. BUMPER SCREW: The bumper screw F is ONLY used to remove a no -load surge. Withdraw this bolt. Might be useful if a Willys was used like a tractor. Pulley: Grainger PN# 3X909m (will need to drill to 15mm ~ 19/32"). Check the speed droop by loading and unloading the engine. QTY. Thread the rod with -28 thread 1 inch back from each end. Mechanical governors come in a variety of shapes and sizes, but the principle remains the same. Gilmore Global Instruments. Use same grade motor oil as used in the engine crankcase. Instructions | Hoof Governors Too much wear in the shaft bearing can change the centrifugal force action of the governor. Rotate the engine to determine if the ring gear at any point touches the bolt. Some governors will run at a fixed speed - the Constant Speed type. you should not feel much resistance if any. So basically all it is.. is a early vintage version of todays modern aftermarket Rev limiters.typically found on all those Tuners and Rice burning vehicles. Place some tension on governor spring. As a general rule, governors on vintage tractors use a rotating mass that consists of a set of flywheel weights or cams with weights at the end. Installing A Magnetic Pickup For A Governor Our kits are complete and come with an actuator, controller, and a magnetic sensor or pick-up device to measure engine speed. I found one of those under my carb, too - identical. You don't happen to have a digital copy of the parts manual you could share do you? Here is what I have so far that may be of help to others undergoing a similar endeavor. If the carburetor lever is longer, it will be necessary to drill an additional hole in the Zenith carburetor lever the center of which falls -inch from the center of the Zenith carburetor shaft. We believe that Tech Support matters and welcome your comments or suggestions. Does anyone have a parts breakdown for the belt driven governor? Bearing: Timken MM202K. Hoof. To build a relationship with our customers, we share with you our 105 years of knowledge in many ways. Toll-Free: 1-800-633-1834 04-Mar 00:51, Hoof Model K-313 Governor Kit CHEV-235 NOS, VINTAGE HOOF GOVERNOR ORIGINAL HOT RAT ROD USED HOOF # 5-1 SOME SURFACE RUST, NEW GENUINE HOOF GOVERNOR BD540B FORD 300 CID CSG-649, HOOF GOVERNOR E1TZ-12450-A NOS FORD TRUCK, 2 #s6008 2 , Vintage HOOF GOVERNOR Model HC-1B Working Condition Everything Moves Nicely, HOOF REPLACEMENT VELOCITY GOVERNOR 2000-3000 RPM FORD 300 TUG CLARK 993610 4.9L. Email: sales@hoofgovernors.com, Mechanical governors have been used for many years in a variety of engines. This Tech Tip, one of a series we publish for the engine industry, shows how to install this speed sensor. Next to the brakes, there are few things more important to your safety when operating your treasured old iron than the engine governor. HOOF REPLACEMENT VELOCITY GOVERNOR 2000-3000 RPM FORD 300 TUG - eBay Toggle Submenu for Tech Tips From Dr Diesel. You should adjust it toward the operating shaft until it just keeps from surging. . There was a conversion kit to change it to Impco but the Hoof governor company went bankrupt and no one has produced the S100 governor that is needed to do the conversion to Impco. Mechanical governors have been used for many years in a variety of engines. Here is what I have so far that may be of help to others undergoing a similar endeavor. FOLEY HOOF PIERCE GOVERNOR INSTALLATION AND ADJUSTMENT INSTRUCTIONS, Remove plug screw from speed change lever pad on opposite side of governor and install in tapped hole from which shoulder stud, Install speed change lever and spring lever assembly on opposite side of governor, securing with set screw, It is possible to locate the throttle lever, Place tension on governor spring with screw. Re: Hoof BD539A salvage Governor needed. The governor throttle lever H is now in wide-open throttle position. Copyright 2023 Foley Industrial Engines, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Hoof BD539A Salvage Governor Needed - Smokstak Antique Engine Community It may not display this or other websites correctly. You are using an out of date browser. JavaScript is disabled. As a result, we are helping people upgrade to electronic governors made by Governors America Corp into existing as well as new applications. Toll Free: 888-946-8499, TexasAlabamaAlaskaArizonaArkansasCaliforniaColoradoConnecticutDelawareWashington DCFloridaGeorgiaHawaiiIdahoIllinoisIndianaIowaKansasKentuckyLouisianaMaineMarylandMassachusettsMichiganMinnesotaMississippiMissouriMontanaNebraskaNevadaNew HampshireNew JerseyNew MexicoNew YorkNorth CarolinaNorth DakotaOhioOklahomaOregonPennsylvaniaRhode IslandSouth CarolinaSouth DakotaTennesseeTexasUtahVermontVirginiaWashingtonWest VirginiaWisconsinWyoming. Only at the Governor Shop, we rebuild these actuators and offer exchange units. CALL 1-800-233-6539. MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1 Syncrowave 180SD Bobcat 225G Plus - LP/NG Operating at lower governor shaft speeds might result in sluggish governor action. 9195 Winkler Suite D. Houston, TX 77017. Many of these returns indicate. The belt driven unit from a Ford 300 is most likely a Pierce or Hoof centrifugal governor. A lower RPM Dremel tool allows greater control and is safer in the event that the horse moves. In our Tech Tip #80, Governors on Industrial Engines: A Brief Overview, we discussed the three main styles of governors. It's some what a balancing game between speed and sensitivity adjustments. This Tech Tip, one of a series we publish for the engine industry, shows how to install this speed sensor. Would be willing to buy and pay for shipping. CALL 1-800-233-6539. Feb 8, 2017. Operating at a higher governor shaft speed might damage the governor internally and will VOID THE WARRANTY. Red Seal Endorsed, factory trained and certified technicians, with over 35 years experience. If the drop in engine speed (droop) between no-load and full-load is too much, lower speed 100 RPM or so with speed change lever, If governor tends to surge under load, lower the speed 100 RPM or so with regulation eye-screw, PRODUCT BULLETIN HOOF PIERCE MECHANICAL GOVERNORS, Unnecessary product returns are costly to your company as well as to Foley Engines. And I asked the same questions! That means the linear travel available to move the throttle rod is only inch per inch of lever length, at best. Quantity. The Hoof came on Jeeps equipped with welders, generators and air compressors because they required a very specific rpm range to run the accessory. Ensure that the flywheel weights arent damaged and move freely. Replace pipe plug K and secure snugly. "When we do this work, we always should . In operation, the governor output (rocker) shaft has 15 of movement. The basics for governor overhaul include inspecting and replacing any defective bearings, seals, and drive gears. Repeat either of these adjustments as necessare to achieve the desired p erformance. Servicing Alberta, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Yukon and Northwest territories for all your governor needs. CLARK 890859, FORD 300, REPLACEMENT HOOF S372 GOVERNOR NEW | eBay Draw tension on belt by moving governor on bracket until belt can be depressed approximately inch when pressing between pulleys. DO NOT OVER-FILL. The most common replacement is the GC979R5 universal governor that is an adjustable drop-in replacement for nearly all of the older governors. An industrial hose reel cart works great for read more. Reinstall two countersunk screws to retain gear/flyweight assembly in housing. Pierce Governor Rebuild Kit With New Upper Arm Screw in the magnetic pick up and leave an air gap between .04 and .12 and you are done. Check direction of rotation on the Zenith carburetor lever to see that its travel is in the same direction. Try giving Century Fuel Products a call they may have a conversion kit using a different brand of governor. This causes it to compensate too slowly when fast response is required. LINCOLN GOVENOR Parts - Weldmart YOU CAN THEN ATTACH YOUR OVERRIDE MECHANISM LINKAGE TO THE UNUSED HOLE ON THE AUXILIARY LEVER. hoof governor pierce gc1960 83 ford industrial straight ??? B84 - Dark Oil In Pierce Governor, Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines. Their internally mechanisms are totally different. Attach the linkage securely, remove the governor spring tension, move the linkage by hand, and be sure it moves freely through the full travel of the carburetor lever WITHOUT RESISTANCE. Hoof Governors | Hoof Governors 713-946-6703 Using a center punch, mark a hole in the flywheel or bell housing directly above the ring gear. Daphne, AL 36526 When installing and adjusting a Hoof governor, two points of instruction are much more essential than them seem on the outset: Something else to watch for: This Hoof governor has limited travel to move the throttle rod and carburetor lever. Unnecessary product returns are costly to your company as well as to Foley Engines. I like to say I bought a truck with great patina - and everything else needed fixed. Hoof governor rebuild parts - The SkidSteer Forum Maintain oil level in the governor as specified in the installation and adjustment instructions. You can also email Dr. Diesel directly at DrDiesel@foleyengines.com with your questions. Drill holes to meet governor- mounting slots. We continue to this day, growing The Governor Shop by providing exceptional 24/7 technical support services and sales for the rotating equipment and controls industry. Copyright 1995-2023 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved. As a result, we are helping people upgrade to electronic governors made by Governors America Corp into existing as well as new applications. Repairing hooves - Farrier Blog I am asking this for a customer of mine--he has a 20RZ that uses the common belt driven governor found on lots of Kohlers of that era on the 2.3L Ford engine. But in some cases, with the governor used on most vintage Ford tractors, for example, a set of steel balls within a pair of races is used. item 2 Full Set Car 5 Seat Covers Waterproof Leather Universal for Auto Sedan SUV Truck Full Set Car 5 Seat Covers Waterproof Leather Universal for Auto Sedan SUV Truck. LUBRICATION: Ref. Knowledge is power. Draw tension on belt by moving governor on bracket until belt can be depressed approximately inch when pressing between pulleys. What is a Hoof Governor? | Smokstak Antique Engine Community Be aware that the center of the ring gear will be an additional .25 further in than the distance you just measured with your ruler. Pierce Governor Universal Application GC979R5 183 Auto Tractor Truck - eBay MOUNTING BRACKET: Devise a mounting bracket which will hold the Hoof governor rigidly in line with the driving pulley. 2-3 minor surges before stabilizing should be considered the most to be acceptable. A HOOF governor was typically found on air compressor, welder or generator Jeep. 8. (EITHER LEFT-HAND OR RIGHT-HAND MOUNTED FOLEY UNIVERSAIL GOVENOR INSTALLATION). Willys were trendsetters. Can anyone provide a good explanation of the Hoof Governor on my 1948 truck? Now tighten mounting bolts to secure governor in this position. Make sure the races are not grooved or pitted. Release all spring tension, and operate the throttle lever manually to check for binding or lost motion in the linkage. Also, check to make sure there isnt too much play in the governor shaft. Fax: PIERCE GOVERNOR PARTS - 1ShoppingCart.com It always used to work well but we think the governor is getting ready to give up. Governor Inspection and Repair - Successful Farming View as: Grid | List (1 to 4 of 4) Prev | Next Display: Welder Parts Warehouse. Tighten lock screw on governor lever. That's about it and thanks for looking. Withdraw the bolt .010. PIERCE GOVERNOR PULLEY: This Pierce governor is designed to give best performance at GOVERNOR SHAFT speeds from 1600 to 2800 RPM, when the ENGINE is running at desired speeds. If a considerable drop in. Its best to plan on using no more than 7/8 of the calculated useable governor lever travel. You can also email, : Huge Industrial Engine Products Inventory, Governors on Industrial Engines: A Brief Overview, Foley Scrubbers Featured in Construction Equipment Guide, Award from WPT: Foley Engines Received Top Sales Award, Tech Tip #239: Twin Disc / WPT IBF314 Pilot Bearing Installation Made Easy, Tech Tip #238: Ford Industrial Clutches Made Easy. Industrial engines parts and agricultural farm tractor parts, Supplying both Belt Driven and Velocity Type, Learn more about the company and what we can provide for you, For more information about Hoof Governors, click the image above, Its important to follow these instructions when replacing a governor. Tractor & Industrial Parts Co. 25660 Austin Rd Daphne, AL 36526 Telephone: 251-626-0066 Toll-Free: 1-800-633-1834 Email: sales@hoofgovernors.com . Category: PIERCE GOVERNOR. Hoof governor adjustment - WeldingWeb occur with changing load. It is more adaptable, and less expensive, however. To add further in checking your installation and servicing the Hoof governor after it has been used, check the following trouble-shooting hints. Phone: (281)356-2902. Fax: 713-946-6703. How to adjust the engine's governor - YouTube 0:00 / 5:30 How to adjust the engine's governor ESRepair 35.4K subscribers 1.1M views 9 years ago In this video, WhizKid shows how you adjust an. Tech Tip #136: Upgrade Hoof Or Pierce Belt Drive Governor To Electronic It kept the engine at a much narrower rpm band than King-Seeley, Monarch or Novi engine governors typically used to run pto equipment. Website by FirstTracks. This Pierce governor will accurately control the speeds of your engine to obtain the most satisfactory performance from your equipment. If additional internal repair or inspection is required, follow the instructions in your repair manual for governor removal, overhaul, or adjustment. I am rebuilding a Hoof BD539A governor and need another salvage unit (does not need to be all there or even assembled) to help with the process and to determine repair processes. Note: after drilling and tapping this hole and while the PTO is removed from the engine, use compressed air to blow out any filings you just created from the ring gear area. 119 W Rollingwood Dr. Pinehurst, TX 77362-3453. When installing the Hoof governor, carefully follow the instructions for Installation and Adjustment. Width: 8mm. Get up and running quickly, don't wait to get your governor rebuilt. In operation, the governor output (rocker) shaft has 15 of movement. HOOF REPLACEMENT VELOCITY GOVERNOR 2000-3000 RPM FORD 300 TUG CLARK 993610 4.9L | eBay Hoof Governor 02035-0257 S372PG Sponsored $280.00 + $12.40 shipping VELOCITY GOVERNOR 2000-3000 RPM FORD 300 TUG CLARK 993610 4.9L $89.00 Free shipping Forklift Governor 2000-3000 RPM FORD 300 TUG CLARK 993610 4.9L Free shipping Knowledge is power. n2. 2, HOOF S6008 Velocity Governor Holley 2 , V8 , International truck, maybe Industrial, governor, NOS. This Hoof governor is calibrated to operate at speeds of 1600 to 2800 RPM. Remanufactured & Supplied with both mounting gaskets. Telephone: 251-626-0066 Still looking for parts. Both Hoof Products and the Pierce Company are now no longer offering governors. LINKING PIERCE GOVERNOR TO ZENITH CARBURETOR: Loosen lock screw in governor throttle lever H. Position throttle lever H so that a rod connecting the throttle lever with the Zenith carburetor lever will meet the throttle lever at a 90 angle. Featured Products Details. MOUNTING FLANGE: (Fig 1) Locate flange in most desirable position, being certain that the oil cup is always upward. Do not tighten nuts tightly. POSITION THE AUXILIARY LEVER SO THAT IT BREAKS TOWARD CLOSED THROTTLE. Not yet sure how to handle the actuator seal. Copyright 2023 Foley Industrial Engines, Inc. All Rights Reserved. We have this special section called Ask Dr. Diesel where you can pose questions about engines, transmissions, industrial hand clutches, exhaust scrubbers, etc. Be certain that both pulleys are for the same size belt. Here are some linkage- setting instructions common to most mechanical governor installations: Without the engine running, adjust the governor to apply some tension on the governor spring. Tech Tip #182: Foley Universal Governor Installation For related content and insights from industry experts, sign up for Successful Farming newsletters. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Copyright - Gilmore Global Instruments - Designed by. To determine proper pulley size for the Hoof governor, use the following formula: If the Hoof Governor is driven from an auxiliary pulley other than the crankshaft pulley, determine the speed of the auxiliary pulley by this formula: With the Auxiliary pulley speed established, determine the proper Hoof governor pulley size with the first formula, substituting the auxiliary pulley speed for the engine speed. Start engine and allow to warm up to normal operating temperature. Overhauling of hydraulic governors, electronic governors, and actuators. Call Now. Call Toll Free 1-888-355-9937. Both Hoof Products and the Pierce Company are now no longer offering governors. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Do not tighten nuts tightly. (I.e., a 4-inch long lever will move the rod one inch). Shaft size: 15mm. $840.00 +$20.00 shipping. RAMPTECH Speed Governors Are Redesigned, Tested, Efficient MOUNTING HOOF GOVERNOR TO ENGINE: Mount the Pierce governor on bracket using 3/8-inch machine bolts, with lock washer under nut. Maybe Im a nerd, but I think this is awesome: Well, Dan - it's OK to be a Willys nerd. Hoof Type Governor Adjustments - Smokstak Antique Engine Community The governors rotating flywheel weights develop a centrifugal force in relation to the speed at which they rotate. An incorrect adjustment here can generate warranty claim comments like: Engine runs away or over-speeds when load is removed, Something else to watch for: This Hoof governor has limited travel to move the throttle rod and carburetor lever. Comes with front housing bearing; shaft bearings and retaining clips; thrust bearing with thrust washer; upper and lower springs; seal and mounting gasket; and new upper breakover arm. Since then there have been significant changes in the industry. speed is experienced when normal load is applied, adjust the governor for greater sensitivity. TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE IS AVAILABLE AT FOLEY ENGINES WEEKDAYS FROM 9:00 AM UNTIL 4:30 PM, EASTERN TIME. Copyright 2000-2020 by. Governor Greg Abbott today has charged Tri-Agency Workforce Partners, including the Texas Workforce Commission, Texas Education Agency and Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board with developing an education and workforce training plan to support the rebuilding of communities . As a general rule, governors on vintage tractors use a rotating mass that consists of a set of flywheel weights or cams with weights at the end. SMOKSTAK is a Registered Trade Mark in the U.S. Finally, tune the speed adjustment as necessary to limit the engine speed to the rpm rating specified in your service manual. Some will run at different speeds - the Variable Speed type. WHEN THIS FEATURE IS NEEDED, THE AUXILIARY LEVER ASSEMBLY (PICTURED) IS DESIGNED TO REPLACE THE THROTTLE LEVER THAT COMES WITH THE HOOF GOVERNOR. PDF MANUFACTURER OF GOVERNORS SINCE 1913 - Gilmore Global Instruments I changed the belt on my 632 yesterday and spun the governor pulley and it didn't appear to have any resistance. NOTE: The length of the Zenith carburetor lever (from center of shaft to center of hole) must be no more than 7/8-inch. We use all genuine Woodward, GAC, Motortech, HEINZMANN parts in all our governor repairs and rebuilds. To see all exchange delays and terms of use, please see https://www.barchart.com/solutions/terms. This forces the governor output lever to the wide open throttle position. Looks good! Pulley: Grainger PN# 3X909m (will need to drill to 15mm ~ 19/32"). Your old governor will have a Hoof model number stamped in the housing. CLARK 890859, FORD 300, REPLACEMENT HOOF S372 GOVERNOR NEW | eBay People who viewed this item also viewed Hoof Governor 02035-0257 S372PG Sponsored $280.00 + $12.40 shipping VELOCITY GOVERNOR 2000-3000 RPM FORD 300 TUG CLARK 993610 4.9L $89.00 Free shipping HOOF REPLACEMENT VELOCITY GOVERNOR 2000-3000 RPM FORD 300 TUG CLARK 993610 4.9L $309.99 Trademark Office. But properly set up it will work nicely. 101 My Bobcat 642 uses a Hoof governor mdl BD 856 A. I'm in the process of replacing seals and bearings. I got essentially the same answers you did. Still keeping that option open via having a mate in the US purchase and send to me if I cannot source parts in Canada. Foley universal governor installation is made easier with this helpful guide. ALTERNATE THROTTLE LEVER (G), for return-to-idle override contact Foley Engines. This item is out of stock. Replace the bushing or bearing if necessary. MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1 Syncrowave 180SD Should I feel something or should it rotate freely? Many of these returns indicate possible assembly and adjustment errors by customer personnel. Springs in Zenith carburetor or throttle mechanism opposing governor action. Extensive inventory of new and refurbished products from Woodward, Governors America, Motortech, Heinzmann, Hoof/Pierce Governors. "A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts." It will work fine on your generator application. Power to build ties to engine users. Less is even better. Hoof Governor Instructions 5. We hope that you will find this Tech Tip helpful. All https://www.barchart.com/solutions/ is provided by Barchart Solutions. Push the slide stop down to where the ruler is at the back edge of the flywheel housing transfer this measurement, e.g., the distance from the end of the bell housing to the ring gear, to the top of the bell housing, adjusting as necessary if the top of the bell housing is curved. That means the linear travel available to move the throttle rod is only, TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE IS AVAILABLE AT FOLEY ENGINES WEEKDAYS FROM 9:00 AM UNTIL 4:30 PM, EASTERN TIME. Now I have a nice Hoof Governor for sale very cheap!!! Re: Hoof governor adjustment. Website by FirstTracks. . M-9130. But I do know most of my truck's history. We have this special section called Ask Dr. Diesel where you can pose questions about engines, transmissions, industrial hand clutches, exhaust scrubbers, etc. 3,4,5&6. GGI also manufactures and provides a large variety of accessories and complementary components for our primary products lines. This may require you to remove the PTO or hydraulic pump adaptor from the back of the engine to gain access to the flywheel and flywheel ring gear using a machinists ruler with a slide stop, insert the ruler into the bell housing as far as to where it touches the ring gear. The governor shaft is driven by the engine at a fix ratio. Aug 4, 2018. Hoof BD 933D WR 4417300 40-165 , Hoof governor carburetor vintage speed limiter 1934-1947 Ford flathead engine, Pierce Governor GC 4981 07 Gasoline Engine Speed Control Hoof Oliver Tractor Old, Military Standard Hoof 13214E8210 Engine Governor 4A032, 9T403 New, HOOF S10M50-397 GOVERNOR AFTERMARKET REPLACEMENT NEW, Hoof Products D175-348, 13214E8263 Governor Repair Kit New, 1964-66 Brockway trucks 363 1965 1966 , Hoof Products K380A 13214E8217 Engine Governor Repair Kit 1A08-I 1A08-II 2A016-I, 1959 Instructions for Installing HOOF Governors Ford Engine MANUAL 1960 Products, 1955 Hoof Products Co. How to adjust the engine's governor - YouTube In the case of governors that use flyballs, check the balls to make sure they dont have any flat spots, pits, or damage. To build a relationship with our customers, we share with you our 105 years of knowledge in many ways. Thats the only position notable on the governor; closed-throttle position is not discernable on the governor. I got a couple shorter carb studs, and ended up leaving it off on the engine rebuild. . It's too wet around the house to try and put a load on the machine and really test it. If you are looking to replace a governor, the first step is to identify it using the old Hoof/Pierce catalog here: PierceHoof-Governor-Numbers, Many of the old numbers are still available; however, most have been crossed or consolidated to newer units. Pierce Governor Tear-Down and Build - WeldingWeb You must log in or register to reply here. JavaScript is disabled. WARNING: Operating this Pierce governor at a GOVERNOR shaft speed over 2800 RPM voids warranty. Hoof/Pierce Governors-Where Used? Interchange? Complicated little beast, for . You can find listings in most antique tractor magazines, as well as on the Internet. If additional internal repair or inspection is required, follow the instructions in your repair manual for governor removal, overhaul, or adjustment. We use a great deal of rope for odd jobs around the farm and at various community events. Featured Products. They use the same diameter and style governor drive gear, except the hole size is different. The length of the linkage that connects the governor output lever to the carburetor lever can ONLY be determined AFTER the governor is COMPLETELY installed in place on the engine. I took a break on mine but Im woking on it again http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=54&frmView=ShowPost&PostID=25541.

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